Public sentiment is a complex tapestry of national pride in India's military capabilities and severe criticism of military defeats. Many comments express skepticism about India's handling of the situation, particularly in light of perceived losses and unsatisfactory explanations from officials. Despite underlying pride, there are significant concerns about military effectiveness and Western media biases that complicate the narrative, revealing a landscape fraught with both skepticism and a desire for regional stability.

Indian Government

Pakistani Government

Western Media

In before the influx of deluded Redditors calling this report Pakistani propaganda.

ratbearpig

&gt;New Delhi has begun to acknowledge the loss of several fighter jets during 'Operation Sindoor.' Military experts suggest that at least one Rafale may be among the destroyed aircraft. This would mark the first loss in combat for the French aircraft.

Chadrasekar

Failed false flag, failed retaliation, failed media censorship. What else can someone expect from India.

NecroRayz733

Hopefully, India fixes it before the next terrorist attack on its soil...

theWireFan1983

More than the aircraft, it seems ir shows great weakness and arrogance from India.

Not conducting SEAD, not using your own air to air weapons

India fought COIN against a modern army and paid the price until it decided that MAYBE, Rafales could do more than bombing terrorists and actually fought back pakistan

PhoenixKingMalekith

The primary objective of the Air Force is to defend critical Military Air Installations from enemy Air Strikes where Pakistan failed absolutely and getting airbases bombed and not able to stop us instead running to America for a ceasefire I see it as a desparate propoganda.
There was no war here it was just a skirmish.
Looks like these days Westerners have got similar IQs as Pakistanis no wonder Indians and Chinese are replacing them in Tech Jobs . Do you think it is because of ultra processed foods?

FormalBid3291

India false flagged attacked Pakistan, and failed miserably.  That's what happened.  US Fighters they were using we like paper airplanes against the Chinese jets Pakistan is flying.  Prepare for even more anti-China propaganda.

Fantastic-Wasabi7501

For all the DCS nerds, this should be a lesson that real life is far from even the most “accurate” sim and that you can’t push for the dogfight because long range BVR missiles will eat you alive.

Likewise, another lesson we’ve been reminded of is that high quality weapons and technology can only get you so far. I don’t believe India’s shortfalls were in inferior aircraft and AA systems, but rather poor battle planning. I know the Meteor is a seriously dangerous missile and IAF has them for their rafales, but neither side has provided any evidence that meteors were fired. 

My laymans theory is that India wasn’t planning on such a large and effective wave of interceptors and hoped widespread strike aircraft would overwhelm their defenses and eliminate the need for fighter cover.

Environmental-Rub933

Gen 4 is inferior no matter how many pluses or decimals you put on them. Good radar and missiles will kill them 150km+ away.

If you are US ally then get F-35 otherwise buy J-35. This is for major powers, poor nations should probably stick with Gen 4.

Suspicious_Loads

I think the layman takeaway is that comparing fighters, missiles, drones, and radars is ultimately a  naive consumerist approach to military strategy that overlooks far more important factors such as the strategic objectives of the nations involved, the training of their personnel, and the potential outcomes if they achieve or fail to achieve their objectives.

From my western perspective, the big India Pakistan Showdown of 2025 was like watching two teenagers try to figure out third base from the front of a Nissan Sentra , as described in various different texts from friends of either of the participants, or strangers that weren’t even there.

I think most militaries appreciate the lethality of even outdated platforms, and for anyone to write off Chinese, French, Russian, Pakistani, Indian military equipment based on a limited conflict, would be less useful than treating it as a datapoint closely tied to the conflict itself.

ColHRFrumpypants

I would like to point out that there is a large amount of Russian gear on the Indian side and a lot of Western gear on the Pakistani side. For instance Pakistan AEW was the SAAB 2000 and GCI has many TPS-77 family of radars a Lockheed product. India had S300 and S400 and also P700 based BrahMos which was abot their most effective tool.

So it isn't just China v West as many think.

That said some things.

1. For Europeans, its very disheartening that the Rafale, pretty much the premier Euro fighter aircraft got shot down by what is Chinas 4 or 5th best\* plane. And not just shot donw, shot down, when SPECTRA was engaged, at *very* long range (almost 200 km) and at low altitude, it should have been simple to survive, but it didn't. Europe missed the fifth gen boat, it has to hit the 6 gen one,

2. BVR is not the future, it is the now. Lots of BVR kills in Ukraine, the 2019 Indo-Pak clashes also saw kills at BVR ranges. Ditto datalinks.

3. If you lose EW war you lose the whole thing. Indians despite having a lot of very good plattforms on paper, weren't able to get a single effective shot out, not this time nor in 2019. Sine PAF  EW was superb. 

4. Training, realistic training is essential. There is a very good video by a French Eternand and Rafale piloyt whom pointed out the PAF has been having multoi national and bilateral exersizes for a decade now. Shaheen series with China, Indus Shield with ME and Gulf states. 

5. Lots of unknowables (though I suspect the intel agencies do know them).There is a lot of gaps in knowing the true capabilities of the J10C and JF17 BLKIII. There have been some statements from PAF pver the past few years that these aircraft have a lot of AI built in. But thats about all, how much, to what extent is unknown.

\*CAC-Chengdu insist the J10C is behind only the J20 in capability, we do know that J10C had lts of the technology developed for J20, the HUD and HMD are two things which have been revealed, but there might be others. OTH this may be a snipe at Shenyang.

aaronupright

Absolutely, the 2025 IAF–PAF exchange was a watershed moment, especially from an air combat learning perspective. What stands out most is how a smaller air force with fewer resources leveraged doctrine, integration, and precision to dominate a technically larger adversary. This wasn’t just about a Rafale getting shot down,  though that’s huge on its own. It was also about how Mirage 2000, MiG-29, and likely even a Su-30MKI were neutralized in a BVR environment without a single successful missile release from the Indian side. That’s tactical control of the battlespace.

Western analysts should be paying very close attention to how the PAF employed a networked air doctrine: J-10Cs/JF17's with PL-15s, coordinated with AWACS, electronic warfare, and secure datalinks (Link-17) to create a kill box. Even a platform like the JF-17 which on paper might seem inferior to a Rafale or Su-30MKI becomes deadly when plugged into a well-drilled, real-time combat network. With that kind of ecosystem, it’s not far-fetched to say a JF-17 can go mano a mano with a Rafale.

The old thinking, that Chinese systems are just “bad copies”, doesn’t hold anymore. These platforms may not look revolutionary on paper, but in execution, they’re lethal, agile, and integrated. This conflict showed that superiority isn’t just about hardware; it’s about how you use it. The IAF had excellent aircraft, but they weren’t able to operate in contested airspace. That’s the headline.

[deleted]

I agree that Chinese equipment was underrated. Much like Chinese cars once were, but no more. Especially their J-10's have showcased their ability. Bangladesh Air force is now looking to purchase J-10's. Indonesian Air Force have apparently cancelled or put their Rafale orders on hold.

What can be learned here is that China is the new Russia in the east or even better. Atleast as far as fighter jets are concerned. 

Although I still believe, there has never been a better fighter jet made than the F-22. Nothing comes close yet.
Wonder if US will eventually market the F-22's at some point in the future

phoeebsy

How important getting the first shot in an air battle is.
Stealth aircrafts are as lethal as they are because they always have the advantage of the first shot against non stealth aircrafts.
Iaf was told not to fire at millitary assets and judging by the wreckage Rafales for some reason did not carry meteor missiles and multiple pl15s were fired at each aircraft.
If you have multiple aesa guided missiles fired at you one by one you are toast, no matter the aircraft, even an F35 would have struggled in that scenario.
Also Iaf planes seems to have got hit not far from their respective air bases ,so my hunch is the Iaf planes were preparing to land and paf planes held their missiles for a while to give them a false sense of security and then when the time came paf went for the lock and launched missiles one by one.

Zealousideal_Rock984

Is there anything to learn ? I mean fundamentally . Even though the details aren't known , a quick recollection of possible events would show that what happened wasn't anything really radical nor unknown . The importance of networking , AWACS and EW is not something that came from this conflict- it was always known .

Though what the west *will* learn is not to trust any Indian journalist ever lol.

CorneliusTheIdolator

Isn’t India’s refusal to perform SEAD and refusing to first target military installations for the sake of avoiding a major escalation a huge factor in perceived losses?

Pakistan had plenty of time to prepare for any Indian strike, and Indian fighters were sent into prepared defences, so, this conflict was not in any way indicative of either the rafale or the Indian military in an actual conflict.

Ok_Calendar7116

You will learn how to distinguish nationalities online. Those who talk about air battles are Pakistani and people from other countries, and those who talk about airbase and ground strikes are Indians. No surprise that Pakistan and India wants to talk about narrative that beneficial to them, but it’s interesting the global narrative aligned more with Pakistan. 

1. Air battle is inherently more interesting than striking ground targets, because air assets are most propaganday things in any country’s arsenal, leading to their loss becomes the most visible topic. 

2. Air battles themselves are rare in modern ages, and US, France, China is watching closely for intelligence. For India, this is true as well. The most priced thing for them is the PL-15 missile debris, a few holes in runway and collapsed buildings are just propaganda face points.

loned__

A barrage of missiles will wreck your airbases, something China has plenty of to counter US airbases

Usual-Ad-4986

You can learn to put some fucking respect to the PLA name

defl3ct0r

With as little information about the event and with the sample size of one, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from it all. There are so many things that could go wrong in any singular engagement, that it's difficult to say that a system as complex as a fighter jet is now good/bad because of it. When it comes to modern air combat that is a nightmarish web of technologies, human factors such as training and countless other potential points of failure.

Single Rafale being downed could be explained by any of the following and more: Differences in training, maintenance, interconnection with third support systems, issues with communication and coordination, unexpected weather/terrain conditions causing a blindspot with one of the numerous technologies involved, design flaws of the plane itself etc. All jet fighters are fickle and overengineered by nature, with systems stacked on top of systems that don't have great error tolerances even with text book perfect maintenance standards.

In general, when it comes to jet fighter era air engagements something not going wrong would be the rarity. Things going wrong don't always end up in a downed plane, but especially when it comes to these one-off skirmishes where a lot of people are doing things in a real combat setting for the first time - all these factors can easily stack up and lead to visible plunders where one of them would not be enough to end in a loss, but three or four of them together would. Fighter jets of all types and origin fall down quite routinely during training exercises etc even when performed by nations we know for a fact know what they are doing regarding the technology, training and maintenance.

Rugged and simple jet fighter is almost an oxymoron. Even the relatively simple and robust ones are finicky over engineered princesses one needs to constantly pamper and even then they will sometimes randomly throw a hissy fit and fall apart without warning. Thanks to the nature of the technology itself. One really needs a comprehensive dataset to draw statistical conclusions from it all, which often isn't possible until there is a large scale war with dozens of losses.

FluffnPuff_Rebirth

Technically a bit about the effectiveness of kill-chains and datalinks. But to my knowledge there’s no evidence for India actually using air-to-air missiles which is an extremely important factor in analyzing this engagement. Little can be gauged about missile performance but PL-15s being generally capable of intercepting modern aircraft (not even the effectiveness for lack of accurate information on launch parameters, amount of ammunition dispensed and energy state of the aircraft intercepted).
Did I miss anything in the flood of misinformation and propaganda by both sides?

Live_Menu_7404

That maybe instead of banking on missile and fighter radar tech you need to have better systems integration. The Rafale is wildly capable and so is the MBDA meteor. However if you don't have the support systems in place to use it at its fullest you'll fail. I will also say I've heard the Rafales were operating as a strike package and weren't carrying meteors.

gatchacringescanner

Do not trust the data of chinese weapons in western/russian games, they are wrong.

CureLegend

They are definitely very interested in how the large defense formation was formed and how there was no friendly fire amongst them. Not publicized but AMRAAM boys and gals are very happy with another kill

DemonLordRoundTable

1. In a near peer conflict, drones will not win you the war.
2. It's possible for 2 nuclear countries to have short conventional conflict with clearly defined objectives without any significant risk of MAD.
3. It's important to understand the conflict beyond the brand of jet shot down. If Pakistani airforce using Chinese equipment was really that effective to have completely routed the Indians on night of 7-8th May, why were they unable to stop drone strikes on 8-9th, and airstrikes (Rafale - scalp and Sukhoi 30 - Brahmos) on 9th-11th May across several of their airbases (which resulted in several aircrafts loss on the ground). Did they run out of PL15s on the first day?

the_good_indian

Pakistanis are legit just spamming this sub with ChatGPT analysis and Chinese money. Pretending to ask questions out of curiosity as military enthusiasts while preloaded with Paki propaganda.

Damn ! No matter what Paki military accomplishments are, they definitely are shockingly good at propaganda.

chefexecutiveofficer

So India is now discovering the concept of having allies (that are nearby and actually willing and able to support them) and that their military industry is not actually on par with more advanced nations. Everything they said about Chinese weapons can also be said about the Russian and Western weapons India has. It helps if you are able to use them properly though. 

Either that or it’s just the usual senior military officer advocating for more military spending.

Mountsorrel

And??? Whats wrong in it lmao. India also used Israeli drones and french fighter jets.

Hurry_Necessary

The article shows China is learning how to do what we're doing in Ukraine.  

This actually makes perfect sense so they can come up to par with our Military.

OldSchoolBubba

According to this guy Pakistan was against France, Russia and the USA. Turkey sells Pakistan the weapons the same France does. I dont know why they get so upset about it

KebabG

FireFangJ36

Ex air marshal of Pakistan admits to losing AWACS at bholari base 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;source=web&amp;rct=j&amp;opi=89978449&amp;url=https://www.firstpost.com/world/operation-sindoor-ex-paf-air-marshal-admits-loss-of-awacs-aircraft-in-bholari-strike-13888855.html&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjkksGE-qmNAxVnS2cHHdFDFH8QFnoECD4QAQ&amp;usg=AOvVaw118BGgx6REYlA6xtFAnt5V

Environmental-Emu939

Is Pakistan gonna acquire a J-35 from China?
If you have anything regarding this to share kindly share it.
Thanks in Anticipation

Warweapons

Sources confirm that Pakistan lost 2 JF-17s and 1 F16 Fighter Jet. Pakistan's air defence system has also been highly ineffective with most indian missile attacks landing successfully. And the biggest part is that this is the neutral view. I don't know how these brainwashed people say that Pakistan has won the war when many military analysts and experts have proved that in the current scenario, India undeniably has the upper hand. Estimates are that India has killed 100+ terrorists and approximately 35 Pakistani Military personnel and the proof of the air strikes by the Rafale jets has also been given by the military unlike Pakistan which used edited images.


Tom Cooper also said that the West had misread the situation. Most of the claims by PAK are baseless.


Update: 6 PAF Fighter Jets were downed not 3, 2 other aircraft were also downed

BadKarma-34

Well lets get some pakistanis perspective on this, I watched the briefing for both India and pakistan.  
1. PAF officer in his briefing mentioned they shot down 3 rafael, 1 su, 1 mig, 1 uav drone and 1 s400. No wreckage to provide proof as  if they did get shot high probability india wouldn't disclose it.

2. In PAF briefing they showed damage to adampur s400 battery which in recent proofs has been debunked

3. Further they showed a sat image of jammu airbase with bunch of impact craters, the sat image was altered and debunked as-well.

4. The widespread claim of Female pilot being in custody of Pakistan also turned out to be fake.

5. Their Fateh 2 SRBM was shot at delhi, which was intercepted by s400 and barack 8.

6. Don't know why would their Navy official would have a morphed image of their navy in the presentation and their Official government handle sharing ARMA3 simulation video, ( but let's not focus on this ).

Now onto the IAF Briefing.

1. IAF officer accepted the losses and i am quoting him here - "We are in a combat scenario and there will be losses but the question we should be asking is did we achieved our objective and that is a thumping yes". ( He doesn't mentioned the specific of the losses )

2. IAF officer also mentioned they shot down PAF jets as well but didn't gave the number as wreckage cannot be recovered and i doubt PAF would admit their losses in a combat as they keep reminding the world of their 6 - 0.

Now my question to pakistani side are -   
1. Why would PAF briefing shows altered sat images of the Jammu airbase and the S400 battery?  
2. Why the claim of shooting 3 rafael, 1 mig, 1 su and 1 uav drone, when the wreckage cannot be recovered to provide hardcore evidence ?

It looked to me PAF was too eager to boast on 6 - 0 so much that instead of actually waiting for a wreckage proof they justified it with terminologies. Also them claiming their missile blast when engaged with IAF indicates 2 things either a successful hit or the missile lost its steam and blew up.

Here are some of the sources for debunks if anyone is interested.  
1. [https://x.com/PIBFactCheck/status/1921820766519075271](https://x.com/PIBFactCheck/status/1921820766519075271)  
2. [https://x.com/PIBFactCheck/status/1921800824050626748](https://x.com/PIBFactCheck/status/1921800824050626748)  
3. [https://x.com/GovtofPakistan/status/1920531031301423461](https://x.com/GovtofPakistan/status/1920531031301423461)  
4. [https://x.com/PIBFactCheck/status/1921168918397305181](https://x.com/PIBFactCheck/status/1921168918397305181)  
5. [https://x.com/PIBFactCheck/status/1921051899006005308](https://x.com/PIBFactCheck/status/1921051899006005308)  
6. [https://x.com/PIBFactCheck/status/1921037283165438341](https://x.com/PIBFactCheck/status/1921037283165438341)

I am fine with news channels, influencers peddling fake propaganda on social media but why is the being entertained in pakistans official briefing and being used on their government twitter handle??

BitterOpposite9695

Only thing that seems clear is that PAF seems to have been relatively effective in a BVR engagement.  Whether that’s because of jamming, awacs, datalink, missiles, combat aircraft, or tactical isn’t clear.

No idea how effective either side’s air defense was when it came to missiles/drones/etc.

No idea what if anything the Indians screwed up.

Honestly this discussion is basically a waste of time right now due to the fog of war and  because the tensions are still pretty high and could escalate at any time thus both governments are doing their best to hide any losses whether it be India hiding any aircraft shot down in the strikes on 7th May  or Pakistan hiding destroyed aircraft from the Indian missile strikes at their bases

ParkThese3499

[https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-pakistans-fleet-of-j-10-fighters-defeated-the-indian-air-force](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-pakistans-fleet-of-j-10-fighters-defeated-the-indian-air-force)

Pakistani officials claim that the J-10C jets were able to interfere with the Rafale’s advanced radar and communication system, causing its downfall.

As tensions between New Delhi and Islamabad continue to escalate, Pakistani officials have praised their country’s fleet of Chinese-made J-10 fighter jets for their role in repelling Indian strikes. Chinese defense stocks have surged following Islamabad’s assessment of the aircraft. According to Chinese state-run media outlets, Shenzhen-listed stocks of AVIC Chengdu Aircraft increased more than 17 percent, marking the most significant gain since last fall.
In response to the launch of India’s Operation Sindoor targeting terror-affiliated training camps in Pakistan in retaliation for the April Pahalgam attack, Pakistan has alleged to have shot down at least five Indian fighters, reportedly using its J-10 jets. According to Islamabad, Pakistani J-10 jets successfully took down four different types of aircraft, including a French-designed 4.5-generation Rafale fighter operated by the Indian Air Force. Additionally, Pakistan reportedly targeted a Soviet-made MiG-29 and a Su-30 also flown by the Indian Air Force.
Chinese media has endorsed claims made by Pakistani defense minister Khwaja Asif that J-10C jets were effectively able to interfere with the Rafale’s advanced radar and communication system, causing its downfall in the skies. However, independent verification of how these Indian jets were lost has not been confirmed.

akbfs826

All I know that india showed satellite images of all the damages done and pakistan is yet to show any single definitive proof instead are just showing news articles and social media clips of arma 3

Accomplished_Cap8460

Was wondering are there people here who have analysed the satellite images of damage to Pakistani airbases, how significant are the damages, what do they mean, from strategic, air defence and capability constraint point of view. Especially the Noor Khan, Sargodha and Kirana hills.

New_Personality_4923

Well it's official, Rafael's were Indeed lost, IAF press conference, on being asked about Rafael losses commented that "losses are a part of combat".

WeebicOtaku

AVM Aurangzeb Ahmed from Pakistan Airforce with the details of the air engagement with Indian Airforce, which led to the dowing of IAF Rafale. Here is the link: 

https://youtu.be/zUXgOiiEKIY?si=zwW_wYypmA0AHbwi

MedicalProcess1350

N714SU just saw plane with this registration flying near pakistan-Afghanistan border. It was 12 seater Cessna and suddenly plane disappeared from Flightradar24 app. Very curious to know what just happened. Anyone experience can tell something.

Electronic-Button-99

Washington post confirms that a Mirage 2000 and Rafale were shot down
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/05/09/fighter-jets-india-pakistan-attack/?utm_source=reddit.com

GamingwithE128

[Clearly the ceasefire didn't last long. Pakistan violated the ceasefire not even a few hours later according to Indian sources.](https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/india-pakistan-tension-live-updates-operation-sindoor-jammu-kashmir-loc-ballistic-missile-airports-noor-khan-latest-news-101746835729087.html)

ohWasher

any one know which french and american officials confirmed rafale shoot down????

Remarkable-Solid8782

I need help with this NOTAM
https://caapakistan.com.pk/upload/Notams/A0325-25.txt

does it mean flights from Islamabad on routes west away from Lahore are unaffected? 

Likewise would Peshawar airport with routes west be unaffected. 

The NOTAM only mentions Karachi and Lahore airspace but the message text suggest all Pakistani airspace. 

I'm not familiar with deciphering NOTAMS. Sorry for asking if this is an easy ask. I tried google and chat got but would like some human based clarity.

YahYahPapaya

Pakistan AWAC shot down? Any news on that and how the hell it got shot down?

TheWatcher0_0

are we allowed to say something bad about America?

Umair65

TorLam

\[UNCONFIRMED\] 

PAF C130 burning after strikes on Rawalpindi AFB 

[https://x.com/alpha\_defense/status/1920963395508904323?t=l0ovQufgAXOU07wz7UAWnA&amp;s=19](https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1920963395508904323?t=l0ovQufgAXOU07wz7UAWnA&amp;s=19)

Aggravating_Being831

I couldn’t care less. America has plenty of its own problems to deal with. Just let it get buried under other bullshit news

CarminSanDiego

Why aren’t any videos of the conflict on that air fight on the internet yet? I’ve researched and can’t find any combat footage.

superfluffyboi

[To all those asking for evidence](https://youtu.be/ax0FBm8jazs?feature=shared)

Is this possible for the post to be sort by new by default? u/StopDropAndRollTide

YYM7

Complete PAF briefing about the shooting down of IAF Rafale in a long range BVR Missile fight.

[https://x.com/SaadWasif/status/1920923968879395153](https://x.com/SaadWasif/status/1920923968879395153)

msw_613

Pakistani officials held a press conference with international media and confirmed 5 planes down, 3 of which were rafaels. they also provided coordinates and info along with audio on the downed planes, u can watch a short clip of that here:  
[https://x.com/DI313\_/status/1920888473369690603](https://x.com/DI313_/status/1920888473369690603)

lolzisama

I'm more interested in the drones. Seems like a cost effective and deadly option. Will AI take fighter jets' jobs?

So let me get this straight, Pakistan knew well ahead of time India was going to attack within its territory, India said so, and India achieved multiple hits in Pakistan territory even after so much notice? But now the focus is on supposedly downed IAF jets? If the Pakistan defense is so good, how did India achieve so many hits even after so much time was given for warning?

t23_1990

The recent India-Pakistan air conflict, particularly Operation Sindoor, has raised significant concerns regarding military strategies and geopolitical tensions in South Asia.

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